Emma Lancaster:

The Impact at UTS podcast series is made by Impact Studios at the University of Technology Sydney, an audio production house funded by the Deputy Vice-Chancellor of Research.

Please be aware if you’re Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, you should know that this episode contains names of deceased persons.

Martin Bliemel:

You’re listening to Impact at UTS. What if I told you I discovered a problem? What if that problem was really big and really complex, but applying your go-to research methods won’t necessarily yield a solution? So, you have to resist the urge to apply your favourite methods and try something different. When planning to deliver excellent research with impact, it can start off as something simple like listening.

Larissa Behrendt:

People who are approaching this new focus on impact by looking at their work and then trying to work out what the impact is almost putting the cart before the horse.

Martin Bliemel:

Absolutely. We need to think the other way around, not going from our work to its impact, but starting with the impact and working backwards on how to get there.

Larissa Behrendt:

Well, that’s right and I think that’s a really important place to start is to think about what is going to make the big difference and work from there.

Martin Bliemel:

Doesn’t sound like your regular tweed jacket scholars, does it? These are a group of researchers who are considered the best in their field. They operate in both domestic and international spheres, and they pride themselves on the frank and fearless research and advocacy with the communities they serve.

Larissa Behrendt:

From our perspective at Jumbunna, we would work in looking up what is the change that we can make and where can I work be effective, and then looking to see how we approach it from there. It’s not enough to say, “Well, I’m very interested in the ideas of say, governance in an Aboriginal community, so I can help this community over here find out more about that through my work, and then I can tell a story of how my work’s helped them.” If we’re talking really honestly about Indigenous-led research, it’s got to be led by Indigenous communities. We have to be answering the wicked problems that they have, not the problems that might intellectually interest us.

Martin Bliemel:

It’s logical, right? As a researcher, you have to match your interests with those of a community with whom to collaborate towards a solution, but the matching process starts with you getting to know them, not the other way around. I’m your host, Associate Professor Martin Bliemel from the Faculty of Transdisciplinary Innovation at UTS, and that voice you heard before, well that’s Distinguished Professor Larissa Behrendt.

Larissa Behrendt:

I’m the Director of Research and Academic Programs at the Jumbunna Institute.

Martin Bliemel:

For our avid listeners, you may have recognized Larissa’s voice from episode 2 of the Impact at UTS series where she kindly shared with us her strategies for research engagement and impact. Larissa heads up the Jumbunna Institute for Indigenous Education and Research at UTS. The Institute is unique in Australia. They work across the nation with collaborators in all states and territories. They’re an Indigenous-led research team, and they’ve developed an incredible research approach that focuses on Indigenous community empowerment.

Larissa Behrendt:

It’s trite to say it, but I really get so much strength from the communities.

Craig Longman:

I mean, the generosity of spirit of First Nations. The patience is just extraordinary to me.

Paddy Gibson:

The biggest success is getting kids back.

Martin Bliemel:

Take it from me, these guys are experts on research engagement and impact. So, I think it would useful for us to learn more about the Jumbunna research approach and the important work they do with communities across the country.

Paddy Gibson:

Aboriginal people are still dying in custody. They’re still being incarcerated at horrible rates. Children are still being taken.

Martin Bliemel:

In this episode of Impact at UTS, we’re going to learn about what it means to center Indigenous communities in research, and why Indigenous people’s interests, their knowledge, their experiences must always be at that center of research methodologies and construction of knowledge about Indigenous people. We’re also going to hear from some non-Indigenous researchers collaborating with Indigenous communities and discover it’s the communities who are leading the research.

Larissa Behrendt:

We can tell by the research that the more Aboriginal people are centrally involved in those things, in the creation of programs, and the development of policy, and the delivery of services that there are actually better results. So, there is kind of an evidence-based reason why you would support a philosophy of self-determination.

Craig Longman:

Our central guiding principle is research that facilitates or assists self-determination of First Nations in Australia, but really predominantly what we do is we respond to concerns that are raised by nations in Australia.

Paddy Gibson:

We say we work with a commitment to self-determination in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander sovereignty. Those things are not for question. We’re not out to do a research project to look at whether or not Indigenous people still have continuing sovereignty. We say they do, and we’re going out to actually do research that’s about honoring that and ensuring that that’s actually recognised and valued. Self-determination is not up for debate. It’s a fundamental right.

Martin Bliemel:

Jumbunna conducts their research, advocacy and education through a self-determination framework. To boil it down for you, self-determination is the idea that First Nations people decide their own futures and determine the outcome of their own communities. Here’s Larissa to explain it in greater detail.

Larissa Behrendt:

Self-determination’s important to us for two reasons. As a fundamental principle, it’s the first human right that’s in our international convenance on civil and political rights and economic, social and cultural rights. It is also the foundation principle of the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. So, there’s sort of a philosophy around this idea that Indigenous people should be able to be the ones that are driving what’s happening to them, and be really centrally involved in the decision making around what their priorities are, how those priorities are met, who should be doing that work. Those sorts of things.

Larissa Behrendt:

So, in that sense, it’s a philosophical position, but it’s also really a practical one because we can tell by the research that the more Aboriginal people are centrally involved in those things, in the creation of programs, and the development of policy, and the delivery of services that there are actually better results. So, there is kind of an evidence-based reason why you would support a philosophy of self-determination as well. So, it’s a match of philosophical and the evidence base.

Martin Bliemel:

Jumbunna’s work aims to strengthen Indigenous communities. They produce the highest quality research on Indigenous legal and policy issues, and develop highly skilled Indigenous researchers. The Institute has been around for over three decades.

Larissa Behrendt:

Jumbunna is part of the Indigenous programs at UTS. We actually do three things, we run a very large student support area that looks after all of our Indigenous students. It’s headed by Mary Graham. We also have a learning development team that does tutoring programs and other academic programs for students, and then we have the Jumbunna Research Unit which does research that’s community-focused and community-driven and looks more holistically at the idea of Indigenous knowledges. So we don’t see ourselves as fitting within the traditional faculties of Western academia and it’s quite a determined viewpoint that Jumbunna sits outside of those.

Larissa Behrendt:

I would say that one of the guiding principles we have is of self-determination, and I think that comes through in a range of ways. We see the support of Aboriginal students in their graduation and then their ability to contribute back to their communities and on the issues they want to contribute on as a part of self-determination in action. So, in that sense we see our role as actually developing Aboriginal people to be agents of change, and then within a research context, we take that seriously by asking what research the community needs, what we can do to support that in how we structure research programs or agendas. We think really carefully about the capacity building of that. The fact that the community needs to own the research.

Larissa Behrendt:

So, it’s not enough for us to say, “Yes, we think our research will help Aboriginal communities because what we want to do will have benefit.” It’s a different fundamental starting point that says, “What does the community want and how can we help them get what they want, and in the process of that, have them own the results and be building capacity within the community.”

Martin Bliemel:

What’s unique about Jumbunna is that they start with the problem and work their way backwards towards research. This means Jumbunna is not only serving Indigenous communities, they’re also maximising the engagement and impact of their research. Now, I want you to meet a senior researcher at Jumbunna called Paddy Gibson. He’s someone who knows all about identifying the needs of Indigenous communities.

Paddy Gibson:

Indigenous communities are sick of people coming out, asking them questions, going away and writing it up for some report. It’s not of particular use to the community. So, if you’re doing work with a community, the important thing for me is that that has a transformative quality to it. It needs to be something that the community actually wants, not something that you want from the community, and it needs to be something where there’s a commitment to actually making change.

Paddy Gibson:

Hello. My name’s Padraic Gibson, known as Paddy. I work as a Senior Researcher at the Jumbunna Institute at UTS.

Martin Bliemel:

Paddy’s been at Jumbunna for 12 years. He’s a fierce advocate for Indigenous social justice issues. A lot of his work has centered on child protection advocacy, and keeping Aboriginal children together with their families.

Paddy Gibson:

We’re interested in changing what are fundamentally oppressive social relations that Aboriginal live under in this country. My work has looked at a number of different policy areas, particularly the Northern Territory Intervention. The issues around the forced removal of Aboriginal children from their families by child protection services, and other issues around state violence suffered by Aboriginal people in communities, particularly deaths in custody and brutality at the hands of police and prison officers.

Paddy Gibson:

A lot of my focus in recent years has been on the child protection system, so I’d often be going to meetings with Aboriginal mothers or other family members who were trying to advocate to either keep their children from being removed or have children restored who had been removed. So, a day doing that kind of work could look like spending some time with the mother in the morning to help prepare an affidavit for a court case that we’re assisting with, liaising with the lawyer who’s going to be actually taking on the court case to check to see if there’s any information missing or otherwise.

Paddy Gibson:

I mean, it might look like doing some media work, getting in touch with media organisations or issuing press releases. So either we can comment as Jumbunna about the particular case we’re working, or particular policy development. It’s very important for us to actually provide a platform for the families and the community leaders that we’re working with, to ensure their voices are heard on those critical issues. So, it’s always with our work is a mix between actually trying to understand far more deeply the nature of the oppression that people are suffering under, the nature of the impact of various policies, but also trying to actually make sure that people have got a platform to put forward their own views and their own demands.

Martin Bliemel:

Jumbunna has played a central role in focusing public attention on the ongoing removal of Aboriginal children from their homes across Australia by child protection agencies. These removals are still taking place in unprecedented numbers, and many Aboriginal families who have experienced these removals describe them as a continuation of the Stolen Generations. Jumbunna has been involved in a number of projects documenting the scale and dynamics of these removals.

Paddy Gibson:

These children are still being taken. Through years of work with Jumbunna with families is really, really crucial and I guess one of the things that I think we’ve proved over many years at Jumbunna now of an action research model and a strident advocacy model that goes along with the research is… Actually, it’s on the frontline that you really get the detailed knowledge about how oppressive systems are operating.

Martin Bliemel:

Jumbunna supports the work of grassroots advocacy organization, Grandmothers Against Removals. Formed in 2014 by families affected by child removal, they have members across the country. Grandmothers Against Removals is calling for Aboriginal control of Aboriginal child welfare, and a rapid expansion of resources available for community-led solutions. Jumbunna has monitored the rising number of removals of Aboriginal children into state care, and Paddy Gibson says we’re still living in a Stolen Generation.

Paddy Gibson:

Well, the Grandmothers Against Removals was really pumping around 2015. We were providing some quite intense support to most of the Aboriginal women. There were some strong men involved as well, but the recognition for the women come from the name Grandmothers Against Removals, and these were all families that suffered at the hands of the system. So, fighting to get kids back into their care, or had had kids recently removed, or whatever it might be. So, we gave research support, helped do media releases, helped get meetings with supportive politicians and other stakeholders, help organise protest rallies, help organise public meetings.

Paddy Gibson:

We just put all the resources that we should actually in the university in the service of this group, and the main that they want is again, as we’re saying: Community control of these decisions. Take the control away from these departments and their histories of racism, and put it actually in the Aboriginal communities who know best for their people.

Paddy Gibson:

It’s horrible. It’s a horrible thing. Very often when people’s children are removed is often when they’re already in dire straits in a lot of ways, experiencing a lot of trauma in a lot of ways. So, women that I’ve assisted who’ve had children removed not long after they’ve experienced some quite intense domestic violence for example, or not long after they’ve been made homeless, or not long after something’s happened in their life where they’ve had responsibilities for other people’s children dumped on them, or maybe they’re responding to trauma that a sibling’s going through.

Paddy Gibson:

One of the first cases that I worked on, a young woman actually took her son out of daycare to go and support her sister who was fleeing domestic violence, and that was seen as a breach of commitment she’d made to the department to keep her son in childcare. So, they said they were going to come and take the son off her. So, there’s a situation where because of the terrible oppression and disadvantage and other things that Aboriginal people face, they’ve got real challenges in their life day to day, and then the child protection system is a punitive, destructive system that is then laid on top of that. So, rather than coming in and saying, “What are the issues? How can we deploy resources to support you and help keep children safe?” They come in with police, they forcibly take children. They spend hundreds of thousands of dollars keeping those children away from their families, litigating against the family.

Paddy Gibson:

In my opinion, it’s completely wrongheaded if you’re talking about actually wanting to support families, but I think the history of the child protection system in this country both for poor non-Indigenous people, who are the people who had their kids removed, right? There’s no kids getting taken out of the Eastern suburbs or the North shore. It’s poor and oppressed non-Indigenous families that also had their kids removed. You see the system is basically a punitive one that’s designed to blame the victim, take responsibility away from the system that actually makes things hard for people who are suffering, and for Indigenous people in particular, they suffer really intense racism. These assumptions about their inferiority and inability to look after their children that really inform a lot of the decisions that are made on the frontline by workers.

Paddy Gibson:

So, yeah. I’ve never seen a case where going in with a snatch-and-grab operation with police to grab kids has done anything either for that family or for that kid positive longterm. There are a lot of people in the system battling very, very hard to make things better for families, but it is when people are actually able to deploy resources to provide support that you see the good outcomes, not the punitive forced removal side of it.

Paddy Gibson:

We argue for an Indigenous-controlled authority that can actually have jurisdiction over Aboriginal families. So, this was a recommendation of the Bringing Them Home report that said that basically mainstream child protection services are going to be incapable of playing a proper supportive role with Indigenous families. So we want there to be the right of self-determination to be recognised and for Indigenous families to be actually be able to be supported and dealt with by Indigenous people themselves, but the main thing that’s going to make the difference is if there’s the actual resources that are deployed to help struggling families. Build the housing, provide the employment opportunities, provide the family support opportunities. So, we advocate very strongly for resources and support, and for Aboriginal control.

Martin Bliemel:

Paddy says Jumbunna along with Grandmothers Against Removals have been able to facilitate a number of family reunions. He says it’s one of the most rewarding parts of his job.

Paddy Gibson:

Ah, yeah. No, the biggest success of all is getting kids back. When children come home after being removed, and then you fight hard and then the children come home. That’s the real reward. The most important impact that the Grandmothers had, in my opinion, was taking the issue from out of the underground and putting it into the national spotlight. I think before GMAR came along, a lot of people in the Aboriginal community know that there was this epidemic of child removal going on, but there wasn’t that much public discussion of it because there’s a lot of shame and stigma around the department being involved in people’s lives, and it wasn’t popularly understood that mass-removal of Aboriginal kids was still taking place.

Paddy Gibson:

I think probably the biggest impact that the GMAR phenomenon had was to bring that out and put it at the center of the national debate where it needs to be. That has happened because some brave women said, “Bugger the stigma. DOCs are involved in my family and they shouldn’t be, and they’re treating us terribly, and I’m going to go the media and I’m going to actually talk about it. I’m going to front a protest and I’m going to talk about it.” And we’re very proud to have supported them in doing that.

Martin Bliemel:

UTS has a commitment to doing projects with, not for, Indigenous people. Effective relationships are vital to these efforts, and as we’ve heard, Aboriginal community buy-in is essential for ongoing success. So, how does Jumbunna maximise the research engagement and impact for Indigenous communities?

Paddy Gibson:

One of them is looking at the huge variety of means by which you can actually communicate research findings and the crucial importance of story work in that process, like actually honoring the story and the way that Indigenous communicates can represent themselves and their experiences, and connect that to the histories of colonial violence and the histories of resistance that are so important for their present moment. One thing that has been really exciting to be involved in at Jumbunna over many years is the production of film for example. I mean, that’s just one example. As well as it being important, the more traditional research outputs too. Making sure that you are getting the journal articles or policy papers or submissions to Senate inquiries and things like that published alongside the other kind of research.

Paddy Gibson:

The crucial thing in terms of impact as well is to have a strategic litigation approach. So, you’re also looking for where you can actually get a result for people out of the court system, or a keen eye on the political process and where you can actually get outcomes for people within the political process, whether it’s legislative change or whatever it might be. So, that’s really what we’re about is looking at the whole social landscape and driving change across that landscape.

Martin Bliemel:

And Paddy, how do researchers at Jumbunna approach capacity building with a research agenda?

Paddy Gibson:

One of the things that I’ve really seen with families I’ve worked around, whether it’s families who are struggling for justice in death in custody or families who are struggling for return of children is trying to encourage people to speak publicly and trying to encourage people to get the confidence to advocate for themselves. You just have to have a close eye on that through all of the work that you’re doing. So, I’ll very often work with families for a long time in the preparation of a media statement for example. So, we’ll spend quite a long time preparing the media that we’re going to put out.

Paddy Gibson:

So, over many years of working together, it is one of the wonderful things you see is you see people actually develop that confidence and that capacity to advocate. In terms of our development of people’s capacity, you just hope that being able to provide a bit of an example and sort of be there and share the advocacy skills you’ve got, but also close attention to really supporting people to speak for themselves is quite important.

Martin Bliemel:

So, what should researchers be mindful of when centering Indigenous communities in the research, particularly non-Indigenous researchers?

Paddy Gibson:

I think the relationships are really, really crucial. As long as you’re going into a project, and what you’re recognizing is that you need to actually be there working in partnership with people. It needs to be something that the community actually wants, not something that you want from the community, and it needs to be something where there’s a commitment to actually making change. Indigenous communities are sick of people coming out, asking them questions, going away and writing it up for some report. It’s not of particular use to the community. So, if you’re doing work with a community, the important thing for me is that that has a transformative quality to it.

Paddy Gibson:

If there’s problems that people have got, you can’t just be there to write about the problems. You’ve got to be there to think about how we’re going to change this scenario, how we’re going to actually help people to overcome the issues that they’ve got. So, I guess that’s the main thing for me is that there’s a commitment to really genuine partnership, to actually being directed by the communities you’re working for, and that you’re actually there for the long haul to help change the oppressive circumstance people find themself in.

Martin Bliemel:

How as researchers do we make sure our work is not extractive?

Paddy Gibson:

It’s very important to have that long-term commitment to those relationships beyond the life of any sort of funded research project. What you’re moving into is an area where people are suffering some of the worst oppression in the world in many cases. The criminal justice system and the way it treats Aboriginal, Torrestralian people is a global shame. It’s never going to be enough to just go in and get a bit of data and get out. It always has to be if I’ve got a relationship with someone, that’s because they’re oppressed and I’m in a position where that’s of interest somewhere to some research funder or whatever it might be, but me being here is about trying to transform that relationship.

Martin Bliemel:

And how can non-Indigenous researchers ensure that they’re creating space for Indigenous research development?

Paddy Gibson:

Well look, I’m very lucky in that I work in an Indigenous-controlled research unit. So, all of the priorities in my workplace are already set by Indigenous people. I’m working alongside some amazing Indigenous colleagues. So, it’s quite unique the position I’m in, so it’s hard to offer advice for people that might not be in the same position, but I guess the thing that I would say is if you’re putting in funding applications, or you’re doing something that is somehow related to Indigenous communities, it can’t just be about you getting some funding for your project and your work. It has to be about actually creating resources for that community. There should be jobs for people in that community or other Indigenous researchers who have connected to the community or connected to the issue.

Paddy Gibson:

My job at Jumbunna started just after the Howard government launched the Northern Territory Intervention, which was a real watershed moment in a bad way, in Indigenous politics in Australia. The revival of explicitly racist laws very much akin to the protection regime that many Aboriginal people had to live under across the country throughout the 20th Century. So, a really horrible moment. Racial Discrimination Actsuspended, armies sent into communities.

Paddy Gibson:

It was at that time that I initially connected with Larissa Behrendt. I’m an activist, and I was organising protests around the Intervention, and I met Larissa through that and put research proposal to her to actually go up to communities to look at the experience of the Intervention on the ground. She put me on as a part-time researcher then back in 2008, and it’s been incredible.

Paddy Gibson:

I just really want to pay homage to my colleagues. Fantastic people. World-leading Indigenous researchers that I’ve just learnt so much from both in an intellectual sense in terms of all their theorising and their wonderful writing and filmmaking, poetry, but also the courage, and the importance of actually standing up for what you believe in and holding your ground even when you’re under heavy fire. I’ve had to learn that at Jumbunna for sure, and it has been a real privilege to work there.

Martin Bliemel:

Paddy’s work had genuine impact. The work he does changes lives. It influences public discourse and educates society on the complex social issues facing Indigenous people. The work Jumbunna does is incredibly useful, and as a researcher from another discipline, there’s a lot you can take from this framework of self-determination. It’s all about listening to what a community needs before anything else and working your way back from there. If I’m starting to sound like a broken record, well, that’s because this is similar to the co-design methods mentioned in our other episodes, especially episode 5 on TDI.

Martin Bliemel:

If you haven’t heard it, I’d encourage you to go back and check it out. Now, another researcher at the Jumbunna Institute for Indigenous Education and Research is Craig Longman.

Craig Longman:

There is a tendency in law, especially in crime and family law to see First Nation communities as damaged as opposed to extraordinarily powerful and extraordinarily resilient nations that notwithstanding 200+ years of very aggressive colonisation that continues today, maintain cultural knowledge, maintain extraordinarily close communities and maintain a gravitas and a wisdom that is simply not reflected in broad mainstream Australian culture.

Martin Bliemel:

Craig’s been with Jumbunna for 10 years. As a barrister, he sees first hand the discrimination First Nations people experience in the criminal justice system. His work is all about responding to the concerns raised by First Nations people. Here he is in conversation with Impact Studios’ producer and journalist Cassandra Steeth.

Craig Longman:

At Jumbunna, all of our culture is set up for impact. It is almost a rule in Jumbunna that if you’re going to do research, it’s got to have some impactful benefit for First Nations, otherwise what are you doing?

Cassandra Steeth:

What is your work about?

Craig Longman:

So, I don’t do Indigenous research. I do research with Indigenous communities. Most of my research is going to be on how can I take the lessons of the community and translate them into sights of impact in the legal system that I know really well because it’s not an Indigenous legal system, right? It’s a non-Indigenous legal system. The practical reality is I think it’s a failing in the Western philosophy that if I exercise enough logic and empathy, I can know what it is to be Indigenous. I just can’t, because I’m not. And so, recognising that truth and realising that an Indigenous voice is going to have a merit to it that I can’t, means you just create a space for it.

Craig Longman:

So, my work is predominately around First Nations communities and their engagement with the Australian legal system. Recently in the last decade we’ve been focusing a lot on unsolved murders, unsolved killings that may or may not be, but we think in some cases almost certainly are murders, and questions around how the police have investigated those and how the state has responded to its obligation to provide justice to First Nations. And also around Indigenous deaths in custody.

Craig Longman:

I use that phrase in its broader sense of not just Indigenous deaths in policing and corrective services, but also in state-funded institutions. For instance, deaths that arise from systemic discrimination in health settings, where from our perspective, those deaths share a lot of similarity with deaths in prisons because those cultures and those settings are informed by the same colonial theorising and the same colonial history that prisons and corrective services are in a really practical level.

Craig Longman:

The discrimination against First Nations was taking place in the classroom, in the hospital, in the court room, in the police cells and in the jails. So we have been in that deaths in custody terrain, been trying to encourage a more sophisticated approach of both the coroners and the practitioners to really facilitate communities’ voices, and really push for far more accountability, which has been a weakness of that system for a long time. We recognize in the nations we work with an expertise equal to our own, different but equal.

Craig Longman:

So, if I’m working with an elder or a family member in a death in custody, and they, “Well, this is my problem with the colonial system.” I don’t explain to them why they’re wrong. That then becomes part of, “Well, what are we trying to get out of this particular case?” I think that one of the things Jumbunna does very well is it maintains its position as expert without taking up the entire terrain of a campaign or a story because of its expertise. You’re there in a collaboration with First Nations.

Cassandra Steeth:

From a legal perspective, what is self-determination and why is so important to Indigenous communities?

Craig Longman:

The first thing to say is it’s the only thing that works. The research is clear that no amount of paternalistic policy setting from any higher government works. It just doesn’t work. So, self-determination in a nutshell is giving First Nations the right to determine their own priorities, their own cultural mechanisms, their own governance mechanisms, it’s agency. To convey an effective agency, you have to give space to make those decisions. So in terms of why is it so important, well self-determination means the capacity to set your own culture and to ensure the protection of your own culture.

Craig Longman:

Regularly you see in the work we do for instance, that connection to culture broken down by institutions from school through the juvenile justice system through the policing system and through the court system. When you renew that connection, you see immediate improvements to the person. If you maintain control over a nation, if you constantly require your validation over their priorities, that is not self-determination, and it tells them, “You’re under us. The freedom you exercise is by our generosity.”

Craig Longman:

I don’t think non-Indigenous Australians necessarily think about this enough. So I’ve heard in relation to cases I’ve run, people say, “Well, I had it really tough when I was a kid, and I came good.” Well, I doubt that there’s too many non-Indigenous Australians who were told from the minute they were old enough to speak not to speak their language, or that who they were was bad. That’s improving now, but that’s what self-determination, I think, for nations gives you is the ability to be a nation at its heart.

Craig Longman:

So, there’s a discomfort in sitting there and recognising that, “Actually, I’m still complicit in this ongoing colonisation process,” and we are. The reality is people say, “Ah well, that happened 200 years ago.” Well, the land’s not back. There’s no genuine self-determination. Incarceration rates are still sky high. If you’re going to be a non-Indigenous practitioner working with First Nations, then you have to be able to sit in a room and recognise that on some level, you are exercising for that nation the very power that has also oppressed that nation. I am still a non-Indigenous lawyer. I am imbued with a toolkit as a result of that status. That toolkit has also been the toolkit that has oppressed my clients in the past.

Craig Longman:

Now, if you can’t sit with that discomfort and that complexity, then you’re not going to be able to operate ethically or effectively. That’s something that we find with the research in the clinic allows us to teach in the practice of law is teaching those students how to sit with that.

Cassandra Steeth:

So it sounds as though you’ve trained yourself to sit in the discomfort of white privilege, which for a lot of people is a really difficult thing to do, and I’m interested to understand whether or not that’s something that you communicate with clients, or is that in itself an act of centering your experience and what is their trauma?

Craig Longman:

When I’m working with a client, I’m not attempting to convey to them that I’m aware in a way that someone else is not, but I think what it does give you is the capacity to put aside the knee-jerk defensiveness. So, actually my work with clients, all I strive for is authenticity. So, I don’t react emotionally to a criticism of white lawyers for example, or the legal system. That sort of knee-jerk us and them thinking, I see it if it does arise, and I think it takes a long time to break that stuff down. It arises, it’s where the products of our socialisation…

Craig Longman:

But I see it, and I can put it aside and just engage authentically as a human being with my clients, and I actually think that’s where the trust comes from because I don’t put myself above my clients. I don’t tell them what they actually want. “I want X.” Well, we’re in the coronial jurisdiction and you’re not going to get that. This system is a remnant of the common law in England. It’s an innately colonial structure, and this is where we can probably put some pressures, but for those other things you want we’re going to have to look outside the legal system, and we’re going to have to look at media or advocacy or research or storytelling or narrative.

Craig Longman:

So, I think in that context, being able to sit in your privilege is really just about actually leveling the playing field, and not looking at the other person as though they’re less than your privilege, and just saying, “Well, my privilege is actually a toolkit. It’s not innately me. I didn’t make myself white in Australia. I didn’t make myself a male in Australia.” And inevitably I was going to become a middle-aged white male in Australia.

Craig Longman:

The importance I think is not to identify with that privilege, and just recognise it’s something that exists in your toolkit and you can utilise. Really, once you do that, you’re far less likely to just overpower your client, which tends to be what can happen in professional interactions.

Cassandra Steeth:

How different do you think your experience of being a barrister is working for Jumbunna?

Craig Longman:

Yeah, I think I have more humility than I would otherwise. My experience, and I’ve only been at the bar for a few years, but I was a solicitor for well over a decade beforehand, the more senior practitioners tend to have more humility. Tends to be the junior practitioner who speaks over the client and explains the world to them, but I think the other thing that it’s given me is a far more sophisticated understanding of firstly, the law as a forum of conflict, but also secondly, the inherent limitations in the law.

Craig Longman:

I mean, when you go to a law degree, you’re taught about the great civil rights lawyers of the past and the capacity of the law to firm and justice, and those things are true, but equally true is the fact that there were more lawyers working for segregation than against it during the civil rights movement. There are today still currently plenty of practitioners in either the law or social services for instance, that have the best of intentions, but due to a lack of knowledge, do extraordinarily harmful things to First Nations with the intent to do helpful things. So, I think Jumbunna’s given me a capacity of sophistication that I simply couldn’t have obtained anywhere else.

Cassandra Steeth:

You’ve been with Jumbunna for 10 years, Craig?

Craig Longman:

Yes. Coming onto 10 this October, yeah.

Cassandra Steeth:

And your research and legal advocacy work has focused on the experience First Nations people have had in the legal system. So, how would you typify the experience of First Nations people in the legal system?

Craig Longman:

First Nations people are discriminated against at every stage of the legal system. So, we did some research awhile back which showed that if you’re Aboriginal you’re more likely to be stopped than not stopped. You’re more likely to be strip searched than not strip searched. You’re more likely to be charged rather than fined. When you go to the police station, you’re more likely to be required to enter into bail. When you do go to court, you’re less likely to have a lawyer. You’re more likely to get convicted. When you’re sentenced, you’re more likely to get a hard sentence. You’re more likely to go to jail, and you’re more likely to be removed from your family. So, I think we live in an informal apartheid in Australia.

Cassandra Steeth:

How widely held is that view among the legal community?

Craig Longman:

I don’t think that would be very widely held at all. I mean, it depends who you’re talking about. I think a lot of judges would hold those views. Most practitioners are dealing with individual cases, and they’re dealing in one facet of the legal system. The academy gives you the capacity to do that doesn’t exist in practice is take the big picture look at the system, but I don’t know too many child protection lawyers who operate in crime. I don’t know too many crime lawyers who operate in child protection for instance.

Craig Longman:

So the interaction between those systems are hidden unless researchers do research on them. I don’t think you’d find too many criminal lawyers who don’t think that there’s a bias against First Nations people in the criminal justice system.

Martin Bliemel:

Craig says as a non-Indigenous barrister working at Jumbunna, he has seen one thing proved time and time again.

Craig Longman:

The generosity of spirit of First Nations. The patience is just extraordinary to me. So, I think one of the things that doesn’t get talked about as much I think in the academic world perhaps, but certainly I’ve experienced as a practitioner and as a non-Indigenous person is working with First Nations has brought me not only increased awareness, but it’s assisted me to work through an innately unfair system.

Craig Longman:

One of the things that Jumbunna has also taught me is the capacity to have impact extends far beyond what you’re trained to do or where you think your research is going to go. So, you’re going to have impact with the work you do in areas you can’t fathom yet.

Cassandra Steeth:

How important is impact to Jumbunna?

Craig Longman:

It’s what we do. It’s central. You don’t facilitate self-determination unless there’s impact.

Cassandra Steeth:

Who do you see as the beneficiaries to your work?

Craig Longman:

I think it’s all Australians. You have the oldest philosophical, theological, cultural tradition in the world in your backyard. Just imagine what the culture in this country could be if it let that in and bolstered that, and so, that is what I hope will be the endpoint. It won’t be my work, I don’t think. It might be the work of my grandkid. It might take that long to get there, but I think that is the necessary work to get there.

Martin Bliemel:

The work Jumbunna does is so crucial for families and communities, and is delivering positive social change, but this work can be challenging. We asked the Director of Jumbunna, Larissa Behrendt, how she continues to keep fighting and doing all the work that needs to be done.

Larissa Behrendt:

I think the impact of research and work in this space is a really important thing to acknowledge, and we have to think about that a lot at UTS. We have people who have witnessed removals of children from families and hospitals, really traumatic things. We’ve had people who have had to sit through coronial inquests of really gruesome deaths. So, as a work environment, we need to actually be saying to people. The communities we help are so disadvantaged and disenfranchised, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be taking care of ourselves because if we don’t do that, we can’t do the work that they need us to do.

Larissa Behrendt:

So, it’s not selfish to think about wellbeing in that context, it’s actually smart. I say that now, but it’s probably taken me 18 years of a 20 year career at UTS to really put that into action. What does keep me strong is I get a lot of strength from my community and my culture. I find the practice of possum cloak making that our PVC Indigenous Michael McDaniel has introduced to a lot of us, and it’s something that I’ve had a big take up on. I’m currently making a cloak for my brother, which is very personal and important to me.

Larissa Behrendt:

Those sort of active cultural practices are really important, and I really do… It’s trite to say it, but I really get so much strength from the communities. I pick up the phone and talk to one of our Bowraville community members about what their kids are doing or something, and I feel a part of a community. I see how they’re living their lives and we’ve been a part of that, and there is a sense that makes you feel like you’re grounded and you belong and people respect you and there’s a space where you can be where people appreciate who you are and value what you’ve done.

Larissa Behrendt:

All of that helps, but their resilience is remarkable to me and I think finding creative ways, whether it’s possum cloak making, storytelling through novel writing or filmmaking, those creative processes are a really big part of a healing and resilience project.

Martin Bliemel:

That was Distinguished Professor Larissa Behrendt, the Director of Research and Academic Programs at Jumbunna Institute for Indigenous Education and Research at the University of Technology Sydney. The breadth and impact of Larissa’s contribution to Australian life will no doubt only continue. The work being done at Jumbunna is having real world impact now, and is planting the seeds for real change in the future.

Martin Bliemel:

It’s my hope that at UTS and in our communities beyond the academy, we will continue to nurture the changes we need to see in our society. If you want to find out more about Jumbunna and the incredibly meaningful work they do, head to their website. We’ll put the link in our show note, and if you found any of this content distressing and feel like you need to talk to someone about it, I recommend contacting Lifeline on 13 11 14. They operate 24 hours a day.

Martin Bliemel:

Next time on Impact at UTS, it’s our final episode for the series. We’ll hear from a law professor whose research is making change in the world right now.

Thalia Anthony:

I’m really conscious of having the research being translated through accessible means. We really need to kind of bring everyone on board if we hope to have research that’s not only precipitating public debate, but actually being a lever for policy or for judicial decisions or for strengthening organisations on the ground.

Martin Bliemel:

We’re going to hear about some research funding that sits outside the traditional research funding box.

Kate Barclay:

Reaching out to organisations and finding mutual interests and seeing what they would find useful is probably the best advice I can give to starting to get into this area where you’re doing work that organisations outside of the university want to use and are willing to pay for.

Martin Bliemel:

And get some pearls of wisdom from distinguished professors and researchers who we’ve heard from throughout the series. They have some great advice for early-career researchers. You won’t want to miss this.

Julian Zipparo:

What’s important and what motivates researchers is we want to solve problems and we want to improve society. We kind of get frightened by change in higher education, and we are change-resistant I think. All changes sort of have positives and negatives, but to me, the shift towards thinking about the benefit of our work can only be a good thing.

Martin Bliemel:

I’m Martin Bliemel. You’ve been listening to Impact at UTS, and if you’re interested to learn more about research impact and engagement, head over to the UTS RES Hub website, reshub.uts.edu.au where you’ll find more information and helpful tools.

Emma Lancaster:

At Impact Studios, we work with the best scholars to embed audio in the research process, making one of a kind podcasts that entertain, inspire and create change. To get in touch, you can email impactstudios@uts.edu.au. The production team live on the lands of the Gadigal people of Eora Nation whose lands were never ceded.