[00:00:02] Anita Heiss: Is possible in commercial literature to write about social justice, to write about black deaths in custody, to write about the NT intervention, to write about Indigenous intellectual property and appropriation in a story that also has astral travelling sex dreams. 

[00:00:18] Anna Funder: Welcome to Fully Lit, a podcast about Australian writing. 

[00:00:23] Alice Grundy: Publishing a book isn’t the result of a single person sitting down at a desk having a flash of inspiration, and then they hand over the manuscript and bing, bang, boom, you’ve got a finished book. 

[00:00:34] Anna Funder: I’m Anna Funder, and this episode is about the business of books. Scholar and former publisher Alice Grundy speaks with the much loved Wiradjuri writer Anita Heiss. Anita shares her experiences in the publishing industry, both as a writer and as curator of a brand new imprint. 

[00:00:56] Anita Heiss: A lot of time has passed, and we still are looking to develop roles in the industry that are filled by First Nations peoples. 

[00:01:07] Anna Funder: It’s time to get fully lit. 

[00:01:11] Alice Grundy: I am coming to you from Ngunnawal and Ngambri country today, and I am delighted to be speaking with Anita Heiss. She’s a Wiradjuri woman and academic, and author of books for adults and for children of fiction and non-fiction. She’s edited collections and more recently she’s the publisher of Simon and Schuster’s new First Nations imprint, Bundyi. In particular, the reason why I wanted to talk to Anita was the book that grew out of her PhD, which really informed a lot of the thinking that I did for my PhD on Australian editing and publishing. And I’m really very grateful to have Anita to speak with today. Welcome, Anita. 

[00:01:52] Anita Heiss: Thank you. Alice. I’m so thrilled that you got something out of my PhD, which was done so many years ago. I’m really happy to have this yarn with you today. 

[00:02:01] Alice Grundy: Thinking about the industry as you saw it while researching your PhD, and now speaking about potential changes over time. Can you talk a bit about some of the greatest concerns for First Nations writers when you were originally researching, and what kinds of changes you’ve seen over the course of your career? 

[00:02:20] Anita Heiss: If I think back to my PhD, which I started in 1996, which was the year that I published my first book, Sacred Cows with Magabala, and I graduated in 2001. So we’re looking at nearly 23 years ago since I graduated. I remember my own memories of wanting to be published then, and the rejection letters that I received from nearly every major publishing house, and there were far fewer publishing opportunities back then. So we look at Magabala books was less than ten years old when I started my PhD and had limited resources. Aboriginal Studies Press was established in 1964, but the first book that they published by an Aboriginal author was The Two Worlds of Jimmy Barker, and that wasn’t until 1977. So that was 13 years after establishment. So if we go back to that time, First Nations authors were competing with non-Indigenous authors in First Nations houses. Okay, so there was that issue. I was told in the 1990s that Aboriginal Studies Press published mainly white academics who were known to stroll down the hill from ANU and get their theses published. There was no black and white program, which is a fantastic program at the State Library of Queensland in partnership collaboration with Hachette this year, so it changes every three years. It used to be with Magabala and that provides traineeships and fellowships and they’ve published people like Claire Coleman and Ali Cobby Eckermann and Jared Thomas. 

[00:03:51] Anita Heiss: You know, they’ve got a great stable and Grace Lucas Pennington is the editor there. She’s also a consultant editor on my next novel. The best editorial experience I think I’ve ever had. There were no awards and scholarships like the ones that Magabala has now, the Daisy Award and so forth. These things make a difference. No one back then had published chick lit either, so I think I was known to create or pioneer chick lit in 2007 with the release of Not Meeting Mr. Right. But having said that, having opened the door, no one has walked through it either. So the upside of that for me is I, you know, I own the space, but the bad side is we need more of that sort of romantic comedy sort of stuff. Now, back when I was writing my PhD, the genres that we had the most titles in were poetry and autobiography. So the life story, which I think is the place that most, at least back then most First Nation authors were starting in and they were older people and that’s fantastic because autobiographies are our history books. And poetry, I think, was an option because I think it was a free form of writing. That’s my own personal opinion on that. But that’s changed over time. We have the first anthology of speculative fiction, First Nations anthology in the world that came out last year or the year before last. 

[00:05:13] Anita Heiss: We have Jared Thomas has cornered the market with ya, which is great. So we have a very strong fiction list. And I think the concerns back in the day were access to publishing and publishers, because there were fewer publishing houses you had to fit. My rejection letters would say things like, this doesn’t fit our list. This is an Aboriginal literature, because what they meant by that is they wanted something that talked about native title and Indigenous rights and so forth. So someone I think in my PhD, one of the people I interviewed said something along the lines of, you know, it’s Indigenous literature. If it’s written by a First Nations person about surfing at Byron Bay. Okay, so I think the way in which the industry defined our work impacted people getting published. There was nobody working in the field except for Sandra Phillips worked for a short time at UQP and she worked for a short time at Magabala Books. Rachel Benssalah, who is now the publisher at Magabala. She was my first editor back in 1996, but there were very, very few First Nations people working in the industry. And it’s like anything, you can’t be what you can’t see, and people needed to see and know that they were going to be working with professionals who understood not only the industry but understood what they were trying to do with their storytelling. 

[00:06:36] Alice Grundy: I’d like to talk about your new imprint at Simon and Schuster, which represents a change in Australian publishing. A real change, I think, not least because the name is a Wiradjuri word. So can you tell us about what you’re planning for this imprint? 

[00:06:50] Anita Heiss: I would be delighted because I’m so excited. So Bundyi, as you mentioned, is the Wiradjuri word and it means to share with me, sharing. And I thought that was the perfect, the most appropriate name for an imprint where First Nations writers will be sharing stories not just with Australian readers, but my goal is with, you know, world readers and international audience, but also using the skills and developing the skills of editors and designers. The way I see it, having gone through decades and many different publishing houses, I think the only way we’re going to see First Nations people truly sovereign in this space and in control of the way that our stories are told, is by having a First Nations publishers that the responsibility for change in the publishing sector lies with the current mainstream publishers acting as mentors and eventually moving over to allow us to learn and to do what Australian publishing has needed for a very long time, and that’s for us to have control over the way that we are represented on the page and in the national narrative. So for me, in bringing Bundyi to life, right back when we first decided we were going to do this and Simon Schuster said, yep, okay, what do you need? How do you want to go about it? I began working on the concept of the imprint and the logo and the name, and got feedback from elders and people in my close knit community, and I began working with an 100% Aboriginal owned company by the name of Iscariot Media. 

[00:08:27] Anita Heiss: In developing the logo that I think captures the meaning and the purpose and the value of Bundyi. So the logo, obviously, which you can’t see on the podcast, represents the flow of the three rivers of Rotary Country. And so for your listeners who don’t know those names, the gallery is the Lachlan River. The Murrumbidgee is the Murrumbidgee River and the Womble is the Macquarie River. So obviously all those rivers had our own names before colonisation and as well as the flow of the river. The logo represents the flow of creativity and the author is at the centre of the process and they share. If we go back to the word boundary, they share knowledge and stories and truths and also the diversity of our voices. 

[00:09:13] Alice Grundy: It’s commonly assumed that independent presses are automatically better at working with First Nations authors, perhaps because of their perceived morals or the motivations behind their publishing processes. But do you think that’s actually the case? And what are some of the nuances between working with smaller presses and multinationals? 

[00:09:34] Anita Heiss: I think it’s a sweeping generalisation to say that independent presses and small houses are better than multinationals, because I know I mean, I’ve worked with both. I know of authors who are happy with their houses, and authors who are unhappy with their houses. Quite often it’s about individuals in those organisations that make a difference to authors for good and bad, and it’s often about the relationships the author has with the editor or with the publisher. And most authors, including myself, are very loyal to the houses that they’re with. For what? For the reasons of those relationships. I do believe there are some gatekeepers in terms of First Nations writing in this country and publishing houses, non-Indigenous people who function as gatekeepers in the industry and make decisions about what is worthy and what is not worthy, and what is Indigenous and what is non-Indigenous in terms of our writing. And I find that problematic. And they are generally in small, independent houses. They present to me another reason why multinationals who have more money, obviously they have a responsibility to have First Nations imprints run by First Nations peoples. But having said that, most of my friends who are authors, they don’t want to be publishers, you know. They’re busy writing and so forth. So it does take time to nurture those things. I’ve published over a dozen books with Simon and Schuster. I had five with Penguin Random House, and I taught my editors a lot about the content we were working on, and about protocols around working with First Nations stories and storytelling, just as they taught me about the industry and how to write good books, and which is their job as well. You know, I’ve also been published by Indigenous publishing houses with non-Indigenous staff that at times I have found problematic. I think to be honest, everybody has a different experience. 

[00:11:22] Alice Grundy: And I think this has been a shortcoming in research into editing so far in that for the most part, it’s concentrated on what it is editors are teaching authors rather than recognising any single time an editor works on a book, they’re learning something. So, for example, in Ruby Langford Ginibi’s Archive at the State Library of New South Wales. She is clearly teaching her editor for Don’t Take Your Love to Town. Susan Hampton. Cultural knowledge. Information about her life, about kinship, relationships, a wide range of things. And so it would be possible to look through that archive and think, oh well, the editor is simply educating Langford Ginibi on things like punctuation or grammar or, you know, some of the traditional Western writing styles. When I think if you take a closer look, it becomes really clear that it’s a two way relationship in terms of teaching each other. But I’ve heard you quote Langford Ginibi with her comment that editors “gubberise” her work, so, you know, in other words, whiten it. 

[00:12:24] Anita Heiss: Yeah well she said to her editor do not  “gubberise” my writing, which means do not sanitise it. Do not whiten it, as you say, for a white audience. And interestingly, if you go back to some of the reviews of her work back in the day, she was criticised for not being literary, when in fact the reality is people often read the way they speak, which is conversational and that is the literary technique of revealing virginity. She was a mentor of mine, pushed the boundaries. Her work came out the same year as Sally Morgan’s My Place. Sally Morgan sold over a half a million copies, and Ruby Langford Ginibi sold nowhere near that but the two completely different stories. Ruby’s story is about the hard life that she lived as a Bundjalung woman from Coraki, which is very different to Sally Morgan’s story of finding identity in her family and so forth. And I think the industry and academia had a lot to do with that, because they set books up to either be successful or not successful. Interestingly, the same year Wandering Girl came out, which was, I think, the first book from Magabala Books launched by Bob Hawke that year. 

[00:13:30] Anita Heiss: 1988, the year of the bicentenary. And I think that sold about 50,000 books. Um, an autobiography about a girl from Wandering Mission. Again, you know what the industry deemed to be successful in an Australian, you know, to Australian readers and so forth. But yeah, I love that phrase by Aunty Ruby, and I don’t know if that conversation would happen today. I have read some books that have been by First Nations authors, that have been edited by non-Indigenous people, and I can see that there’s some issues with the writing as a reader myself, and I wondered if the editor was too afraid to actually say, you know, you should change this or or not, that that did cross my mind. The role of the editor is to make the work better. The changing of the content is not something that a non-Indigenous editor needs to do, but they should absolutely be looking at things like continuity and structure, and whether or not certain terminology is used in a certain time period or by a certain group in society. Yeah. 

[00:14:31] Alice Grundy: The other thing that’s interesting about Don’t Take Your Love To Town that you can see from looking at the edits, is that her editor actually lowered the register in a number of places. So Langford Ginibi had used quite sophisticated language throughout her early drafts, and her editor went through and used more simple words instead, as if anticipating a reader who would think, oh well, an Aboriginal woman surely couldn’t use that vocabulary, so let’s change it. So the editing operated in multiple ways at the same time. 

[00:15:02] Anita Heiss: Just on that point, you just reminded me. So the late Oodgeroo Noonuccal, who was Kath Walker when she published We Are Going in 1964, that collection of poetry, which was the first collection of poetry written and published by an Aboriginal person, published by Jacaranda Press that sold 10,000 copies back then. And that’s an extraordinary number for any Australian author to sell of any book today, right? Let alone poetry, which is probably the lowest selling genre collectively in Australia. And so successful was her book that there were reviewers who didn’t believe that one. It was written by a woman, let alone an Aboriginal person, because Oodgeroo the late Oodgeroo and the late Ruby Langford Ginibi. They were the women who inspired me to actually write something. 

[00:16:00] Alice Grundy: Something I think a lot of people in Western culture don’t tend to recognise is that publishing a book isn’t the result of a single person sitting down at a desk, having a flash of inspiration, and then they hand over the manuscript and bing, bang, boom, you’ve got a finished book. Something that you understand both as an author, but clearly also now as a publisher is there are so many people involved in this process. 

[00:16:24] Anita Heiss: Oh, absolutely. Having said this, it is a solo act in that, for example, I’m up at 4 a.m. every morning at the moment, working to a deadline, and that is very much me being by myself. But the actual process, you know, there’s editors and there’s designers and there’s proofreaders and there’s marketing people, and it is a huge family to make the book what it is when you see it on the shelf. So you’re absolutely right. 

[00:16:46] Alice Grundy: And relationships really are at the heart of a good editorial dynamic. It’s the fundamental thing. 

[00:16:54] Anita Heiss: Absolutely. What we have now that we didn’t have 20 or 30 years, we probably didn’t have it ten years ago in the publishing sector. I don’t know if you’re aware, but there’s a First Nations people of colour publishing network. Many, I understand, function in isolation. They’re in mainstream houses. I’ve done a talk to them on zoom. Others are just consultants in the industry, and it’s great that there is this network. Then they support each other and I’m sure they share work around and so forth. But we need to be building that and building the sector. So there’s lists of editors and lists of designers and lists of proofreaders even, and marketers and publicists ideally having a publishing house where everybody. Because while Magabala Books has got an extraordinary publisher, a new CEO, a strong board, I mean, they’re still non-Indigenous staff working in there. And I think after all these years that a lot of time has passed and we still are looking to develop and build and in some instances establish roles in the industry that are filled by First Nations peoples. 

[00:17:58] Alice Grundy: And I think to do that successfully, there need to be better pay and conditions, because if you’re asking someone who is really talented and young to come and, you know, dedicate all of their energy and their spirit, and if you’re asking them to do that for a really terrible salary, I think it’s a pretty difficult thing if. 

[00:18:19] Anita Heiss: The industry is, well, it’s not even just young people, I can tell you, like I’m not doing Bundyi for the money. I’m doing it because I want this to happen. I have a plan for the next five years. By then I hope to have signed 20. Books. So four books a year. I have a vision for what it will look like when I. Move on. The pay is appalling and authors the average, you probably know better than me, but when I was chair of the Australian Society of Authors, I think the average wage, the average income for an Australian author was about 11 k a year. 

[00:18:50] Alice Grundy: Still is. Yeah. 

[00:18:51] Anita Heiss: I mean, I’m probably on the other end of the spectrum, but I’ve been, you know, writing for a very long time and I’ve got a lot of books out. And writing is really a springboard for me. I’m at UQ two days a week, which I love, but I supplement my income with public speaking and emceeing and so forth. And most writers do, you know, they’re doing full time jobs and other jobs and they’re working of an evening and people aren’t writing for the money. They’re writing because they believe in the craft. They believe in the story, whatever genre it is. They believe in what they give to the readers. And that’s admirable. But the industry itself is poorly funded, and I look at the work of publicists. They’re creating 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 different author tours at a time and working extraordinary hours. And, you know, all that work often goes unnoticed. 

[00:19:40] Alice Grundy: Mm. You mentioned that working with Grace has been one of the best experiences you’ve had editorially. Can you talk a little bit about what’s made it such a fruitful collaboration? 

[00:19:50] Anita Heiss: It’s really interesting because we had a meeting. So Grace is working on Dirrayawadha, which is my historical novel, to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the proclamation of martial law in Australia, which led to the Battle of Bathurst and many more acts of warfare on Rotary Country. And I don’t know what it is because I will tell you, the first draft I handed in was below par, and it wasn’t at anywhere near a level that I felt comfortable with, but I had to get it in and I think it’s not having to explain nuance and tone and backstory. For one thing, because she knows the history of frontier wars or homeland wars in Australia, a very light handed touch in terms of the way Grace made suggestions on what could be done. And everything was, let’s discuss. And you know, I’ve had some heavy handed editorial in the past. I’ve had editing by people who everyone’s lovely. It’s not a personality thing, but people who are, you know, nearly half my age and don’t have the life experience that you talk about and certainly don’t understand the experiences of even my contemporary novels, of what people are doing at a certain age because they haven’t reached that age or they haven’t been to a certain location and so forth. 

[00:21:15] Anita Heiss: And therefore, when you get a report back or you get your manuscript back and it’s marked up with a whole lot of things that you don’t think needs explaining. I find that quite frustrating myself because I know if it was an editor who was my age or had my cultural background and experience, then I wouldn’t have to actually be saying, well, no, that’s got to stay, because that’s how it is. If we go back to the author educating the editor and that reciprocal education, I have found at times that I have had to do more education than I was happy to do. I mean, I see the editorial process, particularly in a mainstream house. I see it as one where we are sharing knowledge and so forth. But there’s been times when I’ve thought, well, no, this is just because you don’t. You’re too young to know the story. 

[00:22:06] Alice Grundy: Is it different operating with editorial feedback in different genres? You’ve written memoir as well. You worked on the Macquarie Pen anthology, for example, and children’s books. How has it been operating in different genres. And is this part of a sort of long term strategic plan of communicating with different readers? Was it something that sprung up organically? 

[00:22:29] Anita Heiss: For me, it’s really I have an idea for a story and then I know what a genre it fits in, but I’m also trying to fill the gaps. I was approached to write, for example, Who Am I? The Diary of Mary Talence is about a young girl removed under the active protection in 1938. I was approached by Scholastic to write this as part of their Australian Story series. I may never have actually thought to have that idea. I’d never written a children’s book. And then I was approached again and asked to write something else. And I wrote Our Race for reconciliation. It’s not the title that I wanted. I wanted something much groovier than that. They’re pitching it to teachers in the classroom, and that’s a book about a young girl who wants to be the next Cathy Freeman. And then I was asked to write a couple of books for Scholastic, and I thought, all my characters are through a female lens. And if we want young boys to read, particularly young Aboriginal kids, we need to be creating resources and writing books where they can see themselves on the page because it’s not rocket science. So I wrote Maddy’s comeback and Harry’s Secret, and I really enjoyed writing those, so I’m trying to always fill the gaps. 

[00:23:37] Anita Heiss: The rom coms, you know, originally published as Chick Lit, were repackaged last year through Simon and Schuster as romantic comedies, moving into historical fiction now, but finding moments in time that I realise aren’t known. These significant moments in time like the Cowra breakout, Aboriginal people from Cowra going to war but not part of the military story in detail. In terms of the warfare that happened on this in Australia, the Forgotten Wars, as Henry Reynolds calls it, or the Homeland Wars as Dinawan, uncle Bill Allen calls it. And of course, Billy Ray, Dun Dun Dura, which is about the great flood of Gundagai, and these two Wiradjuri heroes who are national heroes, not just Aboriginal heroes, they’re national heroes. All those lives they saved were non-Indigenous people. At a time where Blackfellas were already getting moved off country, being displaced and without rights and living under the fear of masters and servants act and so forth, acting in ways that were generous and kind and thoughtful and brave and courageous. And I’m like, how don’t Australians know these stories? Sometimes I’m asked to write something, and then sometimes I find stories that I think all Australians should know about. 

[00:24:55] Alice Grundy: There’s an American researcher called Richard Jean. So who is doing work into just what kind of books are being published? Because there’s a perception, particularly in academia, that there’s been an increase in books by authors of colour in America. So the idea is these books are doing well in prizes. They’re being published more, Therefore, the industry has changed. What he’s done is a really rigorous statistical analysis. It’s been published in the New York Times. If anyone’s interested in looking it up. And he’s found that while there have been more books by authors of colour in the States, in literary genres, overwhelmingly non-literary genres, if I can call them that, have very few authors of colour. So that means that overwhelmingly the books that are sold are not by authors of colour in America. And there’s another academic called Evan Briar, who’s looked at the effect of Toni Morrison on the American publishing industry. So while she was at Random House, there was a major spike in books published by black authors. And I think this is one of the difficulties in Australia. There are so many books by smaller presses, written by authors of colour and First Nations authors, that it might have skewed some readers ideas or some casual observers ideas about what actually exists in the market and the benefit of something like Bundyi or, you know, your historical fiction works or your chick lit or whatever it is, is the audience is wider. You’re not just looking to academics or specialists or people who are in a particular niche. The idea is trying to to reach a wider audience, I think. 

[00:26:34] Anita Heiss: Oh, absolutely. And I think this is what people don’t understand. If we go back to the original question, which was about genres and audience and so forth, I think people turn their nose down at commercial fiction. But I know I sell more books than literary writers, and it’s not about selling the book, except that what it means is more people are reading the books, and that’s what I want. I mean, I don’t have a huge vocab, and I always used to say, I’m never going to, I’ll never win the Miles Franklin. Not that I’m actually that’s not what my goal is. But what I realised when I started learning Wiradjuri is that’s the vocab that was missing, because that’s the vocab that has the meaning in all the words is that like yin, jemadar means respect, to honour, to be gentle, to be polite, to move forward gently has all these meanings and I need to use that word. I’m trying to encourage First Nations authors to write commercial fiction. I go, do you want to be at the airport? Do you want to be in big W? Do you want every day? And you know, when I say those chain stores, I want to be there because that’s where the everyday Australian goes for their shopping. 

[00:27:47] Anita Heiss: And I want to write stories that everyday ​​Australians should know about. I’m writing books for people who sit in book clubs, or sit at home and read books to their children, or sit on the bus and read a book or lie on the beach. I want to reach everyday Australians and ask. Ask them through the story to engage. And my want is that they read a book, whether it’s mine or Ruby Langford Ginibi’s or whatever, and then they’re inspired to read more by whoever it is. It doesn’t have to be me. But they go, okay, well, who else is out there? And I think there is a hierarchy, not just in Australia. I mean, it’s worse in France. My French publisher couldn’t believe that I wrote Not Meeting Mr. Right. Why would you write that? They were offended, but, you know, Not Meeting Mr. Right was optioned for TV within a couple of weeks, and I got my next book deal six weeks later because it sold so well, you know. And Avoiding Mr. Right is the most stocked book of mine out of 25 in Australian libraries. So because it is possible in commercial literature, commercial fiction to write about social justice, to write about black deaths in custody, to write about the NT intervention, to write about Indigenous intellectual property and appropriation in a story that also has astral travelling sex dreams. 

[00:28:58] Anita Heiss: I wanted to find a way to reach all those women who read chick lit and get them thinking about the stuff that I think all Australian women should be thinking about, and it is social justice, and it is saying I am like you in terms of my relationships with other women and my desire for companionship and my want to have a career. But I’m not like you in that I have this accountability and my first dates are like cultural awareness training and so forth, but aren’t connecting with women in one way and then saying, let’s celebrate what we have as the same as women. And then I’d like you to understand what makes us different and celebrate that too. I remember being in a writer’s piece at Sydney Writers Festival and an author being on stage, absolutely mortified that the moderator had referred to her as, I think, a romance author. And in the audience was myself and a whole lot of other female commercial fiction writers, and was a springboard then for us to run a couple of events where we talked about when genres are under attack like that, that writers fight back. Mhm. 

[00:30:00] Alice Grundy: So looking to the future, what do you see. You know what kind of holes do you think we can plug. Or are you feeling optimistic? Are you feeling. Uh, a little bit pessimistic. What’s your outlook? 

[00:30:14] Anita Heiss: Well, Alice, I’m always optimistic. Uh, annoyingly glass half full. Always. Because I wouldn’t get out of bed if I wasn’t hopeful. So I’m optimistic in the work that I do and that the people I speak to, like, I’m talking to a number of individuals who I’d like to sign. I’m optimistic that the renaissance in First Nations literature that seems to be happening every few years will continue, and that we will see a growth in genres that where we haven’t had significant lists in YA and in genre fiction, crime and romance and horror and vampire and so forth. And I think we’ll see some new authors coming in those genres, and that’s fantastic. It’s not that we don’t have the talent. I do think it’s You can’t be what you can’t see? And once we have some more people and we have some more people in the sector, some more entrepreneurs who want to move into design and so forth, that we will see growth. 

[00:31:16] Alice Grundy: Well thank you, Anita. It was such a pleasure. Absolutely. All of the things that I hoped you might be able to share, you’ve been able to share. So I’m very grateful. Thank you. 

[00:31:28] Anita Heiss: It was fun. 

[00:31:30] Anita Heiss: Thank you for having me and for making me think about the industry and what still needs to be done. 

[00:31:39] Anna Funder: Thanks for listening to Fully Lit. This series is brought to you by Impact Studios at UTS, the Sydney Review of Books with the UTS Writing and Publishing Program, and is produced by Regina Botros. I am Anna Funder, and if you’d like to hear any of our other episodes, look for Fully Lit wherever you get your podcasts.