Male Voice Over:

The UTS 4 Climate podcast series is made by Impact Studios at the University of Technology Sydney an audio production house funded by the Deputy Vice-Chancellor: Research.

Hamish McDonald ‘Flames rip through towns, fears death toll will rise as bushfires rage on’ ABC News

URL:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhmaXS70YnQ

To the south there were bushfires. To the west there were bushfires. To the north there were bushfires.

Karina Carvalho ‘Flames rip through towns, fears death toll will rise as bushfires rage on’ ABC News

URL:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhmaXS70YnQ

It’s been labeled an apocalypse and like looking into the gates of hell.

Mayor Carol Sparks, Glen Innes ‘Climate change debate refuelled amid bushfire crisis’ on ABC The World Today

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/worldtoday/climate-change-debate-refuelled-amid-bushfire-crisis/11692184

When people’s houses are burning and you’ve lost lives and you’ve lost friends and you’ve lost family. You don’t think, “Oh, this is climate change. You think? What am I going to do next? And how am I going to save myself.”

Erika Wagner:

The summer of 2019 will go down in history. It was a savage summer with devastating fires that saw the Australian Eastern seaboard scorched and cloaked in smoke. Australia’s long spell of hot and dry weather brought on an intense and unprecedented fire season, we simply weren’t prepared for. Lives were lost, homes destroyed and millions of animals perished. This was a wake-up call for many.

Erika Wagner:

Hi, my name’s Erika Wagner. I study Marine Science in Sydney, Australia, and I also work at the Institute for Sustainable Futures at UTS and you’re listening to the third episode of our UTS 4 Climate podcast. As our world heats up events like the bush fires are being called our new normal. Our last fire season was devastating and a new call for action was firmly back on the agenda. These fires were catastrophic and it was the first time for many of us living in major Australian cities that climate change wasn’t just an abstract concept. You could see it, smell it, even taste it, as large smoke clouds choked up your lungs and stung the back of your throat. The air quality in Sydney reached 11 times the hazardous level. As we brace ourselves for another fire season this is a critical time to have a conversation about the changes Australia can make right now.

Erika Wagner:

In this episode of UTS 4 Climate Professor Bob Carr speaks with Independent MP for Warringah, Zali Steggall, who was elected in 2019 on a platform of pursuing national climate action. She is joined by founding partner of Pollination Group, Martijn Wilder, a world leader in climate law and sustainable investing. Martijn believes Australia could lead the way in the race to decarbonise. Here’s Bob kicking off the conversation.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Zali, let me put to you first. If your legislation were in place now and the Australian government had a statutory obligation to bring forward a plan to cut emissions, what would you like to see in that plan?

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

If we had that long-term commitment to a net zero by 2050, and it’s really clear and important for everyone to understand that it’s balancing the budget when it comes to our emissions. This is nothing drastic. It’s something that many countries around the world are committed to, our state governments around Australia are committed to and most large corporations are committed to. If we have that commitment from the Federal Government, it would mean every stimulus, every recovery measure, would be passed through a prism of guiding principles, which would require a low emission priority. For example, home builder package and announcements that the government released some short time ago would be linked to lowering emission, energy efficiency of homes for example, these are all ways in which every stimulus package could be working towards a greater good for Australia.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Would energy efficiency be a big part of that? It’s a major focus of the Institute for Sustainable Futures here at UTS. People don’t seem to realise that being more efficient about industry is probably the easiest way to get towards that 2050 goal.

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

To achieve net zero it’s got to be done across many sectors. Now, 50% of our emissions are around energy production and supply. Clearly that’s why we have such a conversation in Australia around energy, renewables, coals, fossil fuels and now the talk from the government around a gas led recovery. But energy is also in the home and in manufacturing and industry and how it’s actually applied. There is the other side of the coin where we can be more efficient and more proactive in how we use it. For example, home builder schemes that are geared towards renewable energy, but also storage. I think we are still behind and we have great progress and capability in terms of developing micro grids in residential areas. We know the New South Wales government has renewable energy zones planned. There’s a lot that can be done to accelerate our uptake and our efficiency around homes. So of course storage is a big part of the equation. The more we can focus on that, on batteries, I think we will make great gains.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Martijn what emphasis would you give when it comes to designing a package that a government would be obliged to bring forward where there’s a statutory obligation to produce a plan to cut emissions?

Martijn Wilder AM:

Yeah, well I think your point about a statutory obligation to produce a plan is very important because as Zali’s proposed bill so shows, if you articulate clearly in that legislation what has to be delivered, then governments are forced to act. I’ll just give you two very good examples of that. Your own legislation when you were Premier, which you introduced to New South Wales emissions trading scheme, that drove action in the economy. In Victoria, they have a Climate Change Act now and the government’s required to produce plans. Every five years, they have to look at how they change those plans. It really focuses the mind of the government across every sector to look at putting in place measures that will ultimately move you towards the goal of reducing emissions to zero by 2050. Legislation is really important because it plays a role in driving action, whereas just soft policy doesn’t do that to the same extent.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Well, if the legislation were in place and the government were putting together its first plan to reduce emissions, what would you and your colleagues like to see with pride of place in that plan?

Martijn Wilder AM:

I think first of all, the target is very important. What is the aspiration? And Zali’s bill does this very well. Secondly, how you get there and set in place the measures. There are really two tracks here, one is that you could have an overriding framework legislation, which is the approach which Zali’s bill does, which is very much about decision-making and making sure every decision that you make, you take climate change into account, which the business sector is doing now. But the government should also do that, particularly when they’re spending public money, across each sector you have a plan to decarbonise those sectors. Then within those sectors you have measures that actually drive investment into de-carbonisation because one of the challenges at the moment is that we often have vision but not the actual implementation.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Yeah, I’ve been struck by what the two of you have said about business. I was astonished at how much has been crammed into this year when everyone was distracted by COVID-19 business, boardrooms shifting their position. It’s a major shift in investment. You’ve now got a position where Japanese banks, Allianz the German insurer, BlackRock in the US, none of them will put money, not a cent, into thermal coal. You look at the big energy companies, the energy giants, especially the Europeans, making it very clear that the net goes further than thermal coal. Shell the other day making a point about gas. They regard gas as a carbon fuel. We’ll come back to gas because the Australian government’s giving such a priority to it. But business is a long way ahead of the Australian government and that’s a remarkable thing.

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

Absolutely, you just have to look at the recovery stimulus in the EU, 750 billion euros, but required in those packages is that it be towards lowering emissions and there has to be a disclosure of carbon emission risk in relation to the project. There’s no doubt that big blocks like the EU and major countries are moving in that direction and are making that a key guiding principle of how they make their decisions, which is why it’s so important for Australia to do it or we’ll be left behind. You look at the UK. They’ve had a climate change bill for over 10 years now. They’ve been able to have two five-year emission reduction budgets. They can see how a legislative framework is efficient in driving investment and advances in technology and lowering emission. When I’ve spoken to people in the UK, they very much describe it as it’s decoupling economic growth from emissions and that’s what I think we desperately need in Australia.

Martijn Wilder AM:

The other tact about legislation is that although in Australia carbon tax pricing carbon is considered to be politically unacceptable. Many countries around the world do have a price on carbon and again, yourself introduced one in New South Wales, the federal government introduced one. During those periods emissions dropped and people responded to that. The truth is that many companies today in Australia put a price on carbon into their project modeling. It’s not an anathema for businesses to have this, yet we seem to be in this very difficult political bind in Australia where any discussion of climate change is just very politically difficult.

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

My understanding is we’re at real risk of having carbon tariffs imposed on Australian goods at the border from countries for the EU for example, if we don’t have good energy reduction policy. Whilst there’s a reluctance to look at those kinds of mechanisms in Australia, the equivalents may well be imposed upon us by our trading partners.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Well, the government seems to have pivoted away from thermal coal, but it’s talking up gas. Something you said raises the possibility that they won’t find investors prepared to put money into gas power plants. If the European companies are all guided by policies that say “We don’t put investors’ funds at risk from carbon related activities.” There’s no doubt in my mind that that is going to be for a cautious board, a warning about investing in gas fields or gas power plants in Australia. I think the government is going to find that the world energy sector will not respond to them, putting out the shingle and saying, “Come to Australia, be part of our gas led recovery.

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

I think that’s very true. And my understanding from talking to analysts, talking to people within that private investment sector of whether there is confidence in gas, from an investment point of view. There was already pre-COVID, there was a great reluctance and uncertainty. It’s not seen as a stable market. There is a great fear that there will be a climate driven reset from an investment point of view. Now, we can either be at the forefront of that in terms of having legislation and have plans in place so that Australian investors and investors into Australian projects can feel confidence that we’re equipped for the reset or we will have a big disruption. That is not what investors are looking for.

Martijn Wilder AM:

It’s interesting, if you turn to the US as an example, people talk about the coal seam gas sector. The coal seam gas sector in America is basically collapsing before our eyes. The problem is that in order to make that economic change you need a higher price for gas but that higher price can’t compete with cheaper renewables. If you’re doing things like coal seam gas, it’s a huge amount of upfront investment that takes many years to get back. Whereas with renewable energy, you can build it quickly, it’s a lot cheaper and it out competes that other form of energy, which is gas. As such, the result is that in the U S now we’re seeing an entire collapse of the coal seam gas industry.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Yeah, it’s been held up to Australians as a model for so many years. We should go the way of Americans on fracking, it’s given them cheap energy. But I haven’t seen Australian papers actually report the bankruptcies of those associated with fracking in the United States. It’s a business model that has fallen on its face.

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

In the United States, the growth in renewable energy is huge. It is now by far the fastest growing sector and is now equivalent to coal in 2019. There’s no doubt that it’s happening. What’s interesting about the gas fired recovery talk is what we really should be talking about is be technology agnostic. Let’s not hitch our wagon to any particular technology, but let’s give everything a proper economic merit assessment to make sure that it stacks up so that public money is invested for the long-term future. That it should create jobs. There should be stimulus that comes from the project, but it should also stack up economically so that that public investment is worthwhile. From all reports it’s very clear that renewables stack up, storage stacks up, of course, a lot of talk around green hydrogen and where the new technologies might be. But there’s great uncertainty when it comes to gas.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

I’m impressed by the fact that there is a fleet of satellites circling the earth, even as we speak measuring gas in the atmosphere. They’re so precise, they can home in on a plume of gas coming out of wetlands in South Sudan, or some faulty technology in a field or a compressing plant in West Turkmenistan. They are so precise. They include European, Japanese and Canadian satellites. If the evidence mounts with the data, they’re collecting that there is serious leakage at a much higher level than ever before guessed at from the gas industry, the pressure at the next international climate conference expected in November next year will be pretty strong.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

I can imagine the European delegates saying, “Well, our own satellites are telling us this about methane leaking into the upper atmosphere and at levels we only guessed at before. We can now confirm it.” Huge pressure then on Australia. The pressure could come, as you say, in the form of tariffs, put on our exports, not only by the Europeans, but by the United States, which finds carbon tariffs, quite an appealing way of forcing China and India to do as much as America and the Europeans are doing.

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

Yeah, I think it’s the irony of, we often hear from members of the Coalition and government that the argument against proper action in terms of reducing emissions is this idea that we’re only 1.3% of world emissions, and really the big emitters need to do their bit. It ignores the reality that we’re the 14th largest per capita emitter. We are a really important part of the equation, but countries will take action. If other countries are not coming on board and taking the necessary action, there will be consequences. We will find ourselves on the receiving end. I think if we take the analogy of the virus where inefficient, maybe border control, not as strong enough measures within certain countries about reducing the spread of the virus, then there’s that question of how do we want an open border to that country if they’re not taking proper care? I think impact when it comes to climate change will be quite similar, that we’ll see ourselves on the receiving end of a world movement wanting to take action.

Martijn Wilder AM:

I think it also plays out. At a government level we have a lot of political debate but what actually happens in a business is quite different. I think at the moment we’ve had the BCA in recent weeks call for a net zero emissions future, but the government has not done that. And yet we’re also seeing that many people who buy our products asking for those products to be offset. There was a large Asian government recently put out a tender for LNG and in the LNG, they said, “We want the supply to be offset with carbon offsets.” This is a government asking for carbon neutral gas. Now, when we start to see those sorts of dynamics play out, that means that you have to basically provide gas that is basically emissions free. The other thing that we’re seeing is that there’s increasing talk about scope three emissions. No matter for folks for countries like BHP, Rio many countries are looking at how to reduce the emissions that they create in other countries, from their products.

Martijn Wilder AM:

We’re seeing a lot of focus being on a company’s emissions, no matter where they are and boards, as you quite rightly said, asking about what are the consequences of this. Quite frankly, investors just not being prepared to invest in anything that has that climate risk. The interesting thing coming back to the COVID issue is in Canada, any company above $300 million, which wanted COVID relief had to demonstrate that they were disclosing their climate change impact and asseses TCFD. Again, at a private sector level, I think it’s moving much faster than a lot of the government policies.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

From your knowledge of the private sector and you were a lawyer in that field for 20 years, what would be the atmosphere on the board of a company? Say a bank, some investment house, if there are an investment proposal otherwise attractive but touching in some way the carbon sector. What would be some of the issues that’d be kicked around as the board looked on whether they should put shareholders money or borrowings into such a project?

Martijn Wilder AM:

Well, I think the finance sector is actually further ahead of the other companies. That’s the first point I’d make and that most finance companies have incorporated TCFD, which is the Task Force on Climate Financial Disclosure, into their decision making. In the same way that you assess OHS risk on any project, you also assess climate risk. If that particular project comes with a large climate risk, which might be an impact on the climate or it’s subject to risk, they will assess that risk as part of the process. That’s why nearly, well, I think all Australian banks now have said they will not invest in the coal sector. Many of them will not invest in CSG.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

That’s not only thermal coal, but coking coal.

Martijn Wilder AM:

And then also in addition to that, you’re seeing a lot of these Australian insurance companies saying we will not insure those sectors. We won’t insure coal companies, I think IAG last week said they won’t insure CST in Queensland or coal seam gas. We’re seeing basically, I would say the finance and insurance sector are really… They’re very smart. They don’t want to lose money, so they won’t take the risk. Then I think on the corporate side, there are some corporates that are large Australian companies that are moving in that direction to understand climate risk. I think for others it’s a bit of a shock that the financiers are taking that view. I would say that while the finance sector is very advanced, corporates are really starting now to catch up to that.

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

It’s also where the pressure is coming from. It’s coming from shareholders, it’s coming from consumers. I think it’s coming from employees’ expectations within large corporates. There is now that director’s responsibility when it comes to the board and also then looking at their business models because we saw, for example, in Australia, I think arguably we had our first climate refugees this summer. People evacuating from with the Australian defense force off Mallacoota beaches, not something Australians were quite prepared to see. We saw whole communities ravaged by the impacts of climate change through the bush fires. We know from the Royal cCommission into the bush fires, over 400 deaths as a result of smoke and over 3000 hospital admissions. We’ve got very real impacts that are now coming on in terms of what do climate change impacts mean to people. This is not something for the never never in 10 years time,I’ll worry about it.

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

It’s now, it is now. That really impacts the business model as well. For example, I’ve had a number of meetings within the insurance industry and superannuation industry. Again, it’s where the money is flowing. But from an insurance point of view, they’re looking at the bands of risks around Australia geographically. We will be at risk of extreme weather events, storms, hail storms, bush fires, flooding, which really impacts sections of the population and really impacts their business models. I think for many sectors, this is a reality, it’s an everyday reality that they have to deal with.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

You did something that few others have done. You spoke to a community for months about this issue every day, just about every hour of every day to win that marginal seat against someone with the status of former Prime Minister. What did you learn about the public understanding of the issue? I’m interested in where you got people holding out, people who might’ve been, shall we say, “Infected by climate change skepticism or even denial.”

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

It’s really interesting in Australia, it’s been so divisive for so long. We’ve had 10 years of polarisation around climate. It’s a little judgmental, I would say as well. Some people have come to accepting climate risk and needing to lower emissions more recently than others. Some have been worried about it for 10 years, some for five, some for less. I think what we did well in Warringah was that it wasn’t about judging. It wasn’t about where you were or looking back. I did a panel with John Houston and Peter Garrett and there was still a lot of talk about who did what, when 10 years ago and the political baggage that there is. I think it’s really important. I know it’s easy for me as a newcomer to present that, but I think we need to draw a line in the sand and look to the future and not keep looking back as to who did what, when, to who and undid who’s legislation.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Did you say that during the election?

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

I did because for me pulling people together in Warringah was about we need to be more collaborative. We need to seek to understand before being understood. You have to understand people’s position. Why are they concerned about taking stronger action on decarbonising? What are their reluctance? Not everyone identifies with the Extinction Rebellion, strong green activism. A lot of people are, I would say, sensible center, they want to see credible logical policies around decarbonising, around economic management. A sound policy. They understand that it needs to be collaborative. You need to bring everybody on board. For us, the focus in Warringah was very much about how do we bring everyone on board towards better policy and as an independent bring forward solutions. Maybe the major parties are a little stuck in their corner, and can’t quite come around to the table to try and mediate the issue, find the middle ground so that we can all move forward with better action.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Martijn, what have you learned in your unique combination of roles, lawyer specialising in this area and the advocate, the leader for a major conservation organisation, about how you best talk to people about climate?

Martijn Wilder AM:

I think it’s very important to listen, to hear what people think. I think Zali’s point is right. Everyone comes from a different perspective. There are sometimes those who no matter what you say will never move. They just have a particular position. Whether that’s the Ellen Jones of the world. I have a number of friends who I play touch football with who are very in that camp. No matter what I say, I will never convince them. But then there are others who are really interested to learn. Often you find people have been told a particular line, or they’ve been told a particular point of view, that just simply isn’t true.

Martijn Wilder AM:

You need to spend the time to unpack that and to explain what’s really going on. You have to build confidence because someone will say, “Well, why should I believe you?” People always have reference points. There’ll be some people who will always believe what’s in The Australian or always believe what’s in The Guardian. You have to sometimes come to it with more impartial points of view. To also have people listen to people who they respect and don’t see as having a vested interest. It’s really just a process of trying to explain. Also telling stories and giving examples is very powerful. When people get to see things that are happening in the real world, they will sometimes say, “Oh, that’s really interesting.” Your example before, of the US gas industry collapsing from a financial point of view, if you’re actually speaking to someone who’s an investor, and then you present that investment material they’ll suddenly start to stop and think, “Oh, that’s interesting maybe what I’m thinking is not right.”

Martijn Wilder AM:

You have to find what resonates with that individual and why is it important to them. Then just go through a process of trying to change their understanding, but also listening at the very beginning as to why they have that view is very important. Sometimes people have a view for no particular rational reason. It may just be because that’s a friend’s view or it’s something they heard somewhere else. Then there are also many people who change their view constantly. And understanding as well. As a former Premier, an experienced politician, you would understand those in the middle who swing. There are those at the edges, but there are those who are more open-minded and that’s often who you’re trying to convince.

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

I know there is urgency. I read the article about the ice caps and the record temperatures within the Arctic circle., That is scary, but most people don’t react well to…

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

The stranded polar bear, they don’t react to that. It seems too distant or far-fetched?

Zali Steggall OAM, MP:

If we talk too much about the gravity of the situation, unfortunately, people have a tendency to then think, well, it’s too hard, too late, too difficult, I can’t do anything about it. It’s one of those things of how do we get everybody on board? I visualise that we have to get everybody on board a bus, make an electric bus. We will start going slowly, but we can gradually speed up once we have everyone on board. The extreme talk, I find disenfranchises a lot of people in the community and that is why we then don’t have a consensus to move forward. Everyone needs to feel like their voice is going to be recognised.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

The problem-solution format works very well in politics. I think that can be applied to this great challenge.

Martijn Wilder AM:

I think that quite often in this area, people talk about the problem. I talk about a solution being maybe as we’re talking about a new gas pipeline on the other side of the debate, we talk about decarbonising and here are the big picture policies we need to show more of the solutions. For example, one of the other roles I have is chairing the Australian Renewable Energy Agency. In that agency, we’ve invested in many really fantastic projects. One thing that many people don’t understand is that Australia has led the world on the efficiency of solar panels. University of New South Wales has done great work on that for 20 years. We are world leaders in that space. That’s fantastic, it’s exciting. It’s Australian ingenuity.

Martijn Wilder AM:

There’s a lot of examples where we can lead the de-carbonisation race and to actually demonstrate that it’s really important. Anybody who loves driving a petrol car when they get an electric car that goes twice as fast is always very excited. That is also something. Examples and as you said, problem solution and problem positive solution also I think often help.

Professor the Hon. Bob Carr:

Thank you Martijn and thank you Zali. Good luck with your legislation. I think you’ve made the case for it very well in this discussion. Thanks for your time here on the UTS campus,

Erika Wagner:

That was UTS Industry Professor Bob Carr in conversation with MP for Warringah, Zali Steggall and Chair of the Australian Renewable Energy Agency, Martijn Wilder on the 23rd of June this year. Just as we publish this episode, some news hot off the press on Zali’s bill, Climate Change (National Framework for Adaptation and Mitigation) Bill 2020. The bill calls for positive response to the challenges of climate change, including generational equity and just transitions. The bill was referred to a standing committee on the environment and energy on the 11th of November 2020. And whether the bill becomes law is yet to be seen. Next time on the UTS 4 Climate podcast, in our fourth episode, we’ll hear from Tim Buckley, the Director of Energy Finance Studies at the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis. He tells us the age of coal is well and truly over.

Tim Buckley:

The coal industry went from saying, “China’s going to be the saviour of the coal industry for the world.” Then, “China peaked in coal in 2013. Oh, India is going to be the great white elephant of the coal industry.” That didn’t happen.

Erika Wagner:

I’m Erika Wagner. I hope you can join me then.

Male Voice Over:

UTS 4 Climate was created in response to the 2019 student strike for climate. It is a statement of the university’s commitment to addressing the global problem of climate change through our research, our curriculum and operations. To continue the discussion about climate change and to see some of the inspiring projects UTS researchers are working on go to the UTS 4 Climate website, uts4climate.uts.edu.au.

Male Voice Over:

The UTS 4 Climate podcast is made by Impact Studios at the University of Technology Sydney in collaboration with the Institute for Sustainable Futures. At Impact Studios we combine academic research with audio storytelling for real-world impact, the production team live on the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation whose lands were never ceded.